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Subject: »[update] Improve tactics
Maybe you can tell us more about "those users," add something to that empty statement that I quoted up there.
Explain all those things that you have mentioned, help the people realize their mistakes.
Explain all those things that you have mentioned, help the people realize their mistakes.
Really cool, you made progress on adding the information, that my statement is empty!
Don't stop, all readers expect more information about what I am, how I behave and what kind of statements I make... Tell us even more!
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@ dasanchez86 : Yes, you are right. Most important is the order.
The problematic is, that if a team has wins a foul close to the oponents box, then the player who executes the foul tries a direct freekick instead of passing, even if his tactical order is MID.
In these cases, the player would pass only if his striker skill is very low and, as Terrion added, he has some playmaking :P
Don't stop, all readers expect more information about what I am, how I behave and what kind of statements I make... Tell us even more!
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@ dasanchez86 : Yes, you are right. Most important is the order.
The problematic is, that if a team has wins a foul close to the oponents box, then the player who executes the foul tries a direct freekick instead of passing, even if his tactical order is MID.
In these cases, the player would pass only if his striker skill is very low and, as Terrion added, he has some playmaking :P
The biggest problem imo is that the current ME largly consider the position order to be the biggest factor in the calculation of the decision. So a player with MID order, coming in front of the goal will only receive a small chance % to shoot in stead of passing the ball. I feel the player should consider his position before his position order...not the other way around.
When are you gonna make some progress with information?
Readers can't wait to learn form you.
Readers can't wait to learn form you.
This is also possible. That is why I opened the discussion. To point out that the process of creating viable template should be much easier, and also more accessible to new users than now. Even me, after all this years, I am discouraged from creating brand new tactics when I imagine how much work it requires. And I bet that most users think the same
James, I hope the mod (Dtox9) will not stop our conversation, because we both show elements, that this can be a very usefull discussion (and we both make efforts to communicate in a proper way).
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You asked about "those users". Coincidentally moderator Dtox9 gave us a great example of "those users". He thinks that the ME has a problem, but he does not realize that his own instructions cause the results.
To be more precisely, I quote him:
"The biggest problem imo is that the current ME largly consider the position order to be the biggest factor in the calculation of the decision. So a player with MID order, coming in front of the goal will only receive a small chance % to shoot in stead of passing the ball"
And here is what I see on matches. I see 2 situations:
A. On most matches:
Players with MID-order, coming in front of the goal, pass the ball, if a teammate is near them, or they stop and search for their teammate, who should be near them according to tactics.
This is very logical for me, since the tactics order is MID and the players discipline orders them also to follow the tactical plan.
B. On matches where according to the tactic, there should be no other teammates close to the player, who is infront of the goal:
Players with MID-order, coming in front of the goal, shoot and score.
If you want an example of this, just watch this match: Link Tactical orders 5-5-0, stronger opponent, but only 1 man left alone in front of the oponents box. I scored 4 times and if there was no injury on the 14th minute, perhaps I would score more, against a stronger oponent.
Perhaps after watching the match, you would say "But there where teammates close to him!"
Yes there where, but read again carefully what I wrote: "according to the tactic, there should be no other teammates close to the player"
Understand now? When the ball is on the tactic editor on the penaltty spot, all other players are on the editor out of the box. On the match, perhaps they are in, because they should go in, when the ball was spotted in other positions. But when the ball is on the penalty box, no other players should be in and logically, the player with the ball shoots, despite the MID order.
ME is logical - just people act irrational. They do the same errors and they expect different results. And if someone is pointing at their errors, they usually start to criticise the one who is pointing at the errors, because they have the illusion, that they know everything.
James, I don't believe you have such an illusion, because you started to discuss more proper and asked about details.
I hope you have understand now what I mean when I'm writing that most people who claim about the ME, about about foul and corner executions, about missed penalties, about red cards, about lost matches, about long passes, about short passes, about wrong passes, even about some injurries, they simple don't realize that their own instructions caused these results.
If not, just ask again.
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@ Dtox9 : What shall I stop and why? This discussion?
I think that James attacked me personally by labeling what I am, how I behave and what kind of statements I make and I did not respond the same way! And you ask both of us to knock it out?!! Perhaps you just had a hard day and now you can realize, that the tension of the first posts faded immediately out.
It faded out not only because I didn't responded on the same way, but also because James insisted on getting specific information, than labeling me and my actions - btw, thanks James! :)
Dtox9, if you think I still have not understand something, please tell me.
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PS: I know that many people do not like the way I am expressing myself. However I also do not like people who wish to change elements of the game, that work perfect. I intend to continue to draw attention to such situations. Many of the users -at least on the german community (we had a discussion on the german forum)- like the game the way it is. If sokker becomes more easy, or more random, or demands more time from the users, they will leave.
Are you aware of it, or do you believe that most users have the same opinion like the people who claim and demand changes on everything?
---------------------------------
You asked about "those users". Coincidentally moderator Dtox9 gave us a great example of "those users". He thinks that the ME has a problem, but he does not realize that his own instructions cause the results.
To be more precisely, I quote him:
"The biggest problem imo is that the current ME largly consider the position order to be the biggest factor in the calculation of the decision. So a player with MID order, coming in front of the goal will only receive a small chance % to shoot in stead of passing the ball"
And here is what I see on matches. I see 2 situations:
A. On most matches:
Players with MID-order, coming in front of the goal, pass the ball, if a teammate is near them, or they stop and search for their teammate, who should be near them according to tactics.
This is very logical for me, since the tactics order is MID and the players discipline orders them also to follow the tactical plan.
B. On matches where according to the tactic, there should be no other teammates close to the player, who is infront of the goal:
Players with MID-order, coming in front of the goal, shoot and score.
If you want an example of this, just watch this match: Link Tactical orders 5-5-0, stronger opponent, but only 1 man left alone in front of the oponents box. I scored 4 times and if there was no injury on the 14th minute, perhaps I would score more, against a stronger oponent.
Perhaps after watching the match, you would say "But there where teammates close to him!"
Yes there where, but read again carefully what I wrote: "according to the tactic, there should be no other teammates close to the player"
Understand now? When the ball is on the tactic editor on the penaltty spot, all other players are on the editor out of the box. On the match, perhaps they are in, because they should go in, when the ball was spotted in other positions. But when the ball is on the penalty box, no other players should be in and logically, the player with the ball shoots, despite the MID order.
ME is logical - just people act irrational. They do the same errors and they expect different results. And if someone is pointing at their errors, they usually start to criticise the one who is pointing at the errors, because they have the illusion, that they know everything.
James, I don't believe you have such an illusion, because you started to discuss more proper and asked about details.
I hope you have understand now what I mean when I'm writing that most people who claim about the ME, about about foul and corner executions, about missed penalties, about red cards, about lost matches, about long passes, about short passes, about wrong passes, even about some injurries, they simple don't realize that their own instructions caused these results.
If not, just ask again.
---------------------------------
@ Dtox9 : What shall I stop and why? This discussion?
I think that James attacked me personally by labeling what I am, how I behave and what kind of statements I make and I did not respond the same way! And you ask both of us to knock it out?!! Perhaps you just had a hard day and now you can realize, that the tension of the first posts faded immediately out.
It faded out not only because I didn't responded on the same way, but also because James insisted on getting specific information, than labeling me and my actions - btw, thanks James! :)
Dtox9, if you think I still have not understand something, please tell me.
---------------------------------
PS: I know that many people do not like the way I am expressing myself. However I also do not like people who wish to change elements of the game, that work perfect. I intend to continue to draw attention to such situations. Many of the users -at least on the german community (we had a discussion on the german forum)- like the game the way it is. If sokker becomes more easy, or more random, or demands more time from the users, they will leave.
Are you aware of it, or do you believe that most users have the same opinion like the people who claim and demand changes on everything?
What shall I stop and why? This discussion?
It's not about the discussion, but about the way you intentionally provoce James to insult you further. You might not see it as provocation, but I do. That does not mean you are the only one going wrong here, but certainly you fed the heating of the discussion.
Now about what you said...
I understand the way you think about it. Maybe that could be the case for a MID not to shoot. Thing is, I never ordered the MID not to shoot, the ME does. And THAT is what is wrong, I cannot override that rule by any means, except by placing all players outside of the box. But then my team won't reach the goal area unless they first win 2 or 3 one-on-one's. That's not my style of play, but it should be my choice, not the choice of the ME.
And it doesn't need to be more complicated, or less... But I feel I should at least be able to make that decision myself.
It's not about the discussion, but about the way you intentionally provoce James to insult you further. You might not see it as provocation, but I do. That does not mean you are the only one going wrong here, but certainly you fed the heating of the discussion.
Now about what you said...
I understand the way you think about it. Maybe that could be the case for a MID not to shoot. Thing is, I never ordered the MID not to shoot, the ME does. And THAT is what is wrong, I cannot override that rule by any means, except by placing all players outside of the box. But then my team won't reach the goal area unless they first win 2 or 3 one-on-one's. That's not my style of play, but it should be my choice, not the choice of the ME.
And it doesn't need to be more complicated, or less... But I feel I should at least be able to make that decision myself.
When someone makes a bullshit claim, call them out an I'll support you. But grouping people together, and claiming that they don't understand a bunch of game elements, but you do... I see that as a troll move, and I take it personally. I am the biggest critic of the ME, and I see a lot of legitimate complaints about the elements you have mentioned.
I agree with you on the passing/shooting mechanism, I mean, I also think that is how it works.
But, even if Dtox9 didn't figure out the "right" mechanism, he still sees a problem in the execution, MID who has a great chance isn't going for the goal. And it isn't managers fault, MID shouldn't be closer to the goal in the tactic. These situations ruin the experience.
Again, I see issues in most of the elements you mentioned. There are some topics about the ME, if you want to discuss those things, ME is my favorite topic :)
When it comes to the tactic editor, I feel we want the same thing, tools to make tactics faster.
I agree with you on the passing/shooting mechanism, I mean, I also think that is how it works.
But, even if Dtox9 didn't figure out the "right" mechanism, he still sees a problem in the execution, MID who has a great chance isn't going for the goal. And it isn't managers fault, MID shouldn't be closer to the goal in the tactic. These situations ruin the experience.
Again, I see issues in most of the elements you mentioned. There are some topics about the ME, if you want to discuss those things, ME is my favorite topic :)
When it comes to the tactic editor, I feel we want the same thing, tools to make tactics faster.
I consider necessary to be able to change the tactic with orders. For example, If I play with only one player ATT, I can't change the tactic (with additional tactic) to 2-3 ATTs or it would limit a lot the tactic, and according to devs, they wanted to give more importance to tactics after reducing divine players. So, I think it's essential...
It's a trainee, so I won't change to att order... Out of the question.
yeah, but that might be possible already with the training system change.. :)
The current orders, can be used to make players act in certain ways.. :) I played a lot of 0-7-3 in CC and NT
The current orders, can be used to make players act in certain ways.. :) I played a lot of 0-7-3 in CC and NT
It's a stupid rule, for mids not to shoot when in shoot position... period.
Shots from the second line is even more out of the question, unless you keep your strikers there, which means they won't get in shooting position in the first line.
It's like playing chess without kings...
First team losing all pawns lose... meh
Shots from the second line is even more out of the question, unless you keep your strikers there, which means they won't get in shooting position in the first line.
It's like playing chess without kings...
First team losing all pawns lose... meh
Only wingers like Neymar... Drama queens :-p
Ok, back on topic :-)
Ok, back on topic :-)