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Subject: [change] Version 2 New Competition Structure
We rather think, that your league effort and your team level should be linked with place in international competition (as it is in real life).
It's the most logical. All like real life is better, but we'll see next friday the best purpose.
It's the most logical. All like real life is better, but we'll see next friday the best purpose.
I would like to play an international league competition. In countries with less users (4 in mine) we play most of official matches against bots.
I like the idea of an international league played in stage groups. For me, it would be the only chance to improve my level.
I like the idea of an international league played in stage groups. For me, it would be the only chance to improve my level.
We will keep for now internetional cup in both proposal as it was presented two weeks ago (group stage + play offs), to make it more simple in voting - main question for now is to set final number of games per week, teams in leagues and season lenght. Then we will focus on each kind of competition, we are quite open for new ideas about them.
It should be like real life. Something similar to Champions league and Europa league, played in stage groups and considering league effort.
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like real life it would be if we had only Champions League and European League for best teams in the first division and the cup winner.
But this is totally different because we want all teams even in the lowest division to participate in the international competition. There is nothing like that in RL so we must think what will be most attractive and motivating for the users.
@Raul thanks for response and showing your concerns about the system
But this is totally different because we want all teams even in the lowest division to participate in the international competition. There is nothing like that in RL so we must think what will be most attractive and motivating for the users.
@Raul thanks for response and showing your concerns about the system
I agree but to do It similar you must consider league effort, and this would create more competitiveness.
I like it.
I'm looking forward to see the purposes.
Thanks for your involvement.
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I'm looking forward to see the purposes.
Thanks for your involvement.
(edited)
Great to see another small country user speaking up. I feel the same way, but will trust in the DEVS that for now we decide season length and number of competitions, and in the future we discuss competition.
You are very correct in that without an international league to move up in, you will be stuck at your current level until suddenly Andorra raises its user 20-fold, or you have another competition to work your way up in. I'm almost the same, but not as bad.
Keep around the forums, and commenting, because it is through our own experiences that we can make change. I also have never played in a competition as small as 4 before, and whilst I try to speak on behalf of you, your lived experience, when the time comes to talk competitions, will be very important to hear
You are very correct in that without an international league to move up in, you will be stuck at your current level until suddenly Andorra raises its user 20-fold, or you have another competition to work your way up in. I'm almost the same, but not as bad.
Keep around the forums, and commenting, because it is through our own experiences that we can make change. I also have never played in a competition as small as 4 before, and whilst I try to speak on behalf of you, your lived experience, when the time comes to talk competitions, will be very important to hear
It can't be like real life because so many countries don't even have the depth to make one league, let alone a few levels of depth. "like real life" only works for big countries, like your own, not small countries, which is the majority of countries in sokker.
When the time comes, what we need are ideas that will work for all sizes of countries, whether it be 1 user or 10k users. If we can do that, then if further country expansions occur due to more users joining, it can be done without disadvantaging them. And this is where the international part of this combined idea in this thread, works well. No country has an advantage, everyone is free to determine their own destiny, and it does not rely on others/bots from their own country.
There is some flexibility that can be implemented too, as in number of auto promos (from 1/4, to 1/2 to 1/1), number of weeks of group phase, whether it should be all countries or certain regions etc. And the same can be said with the league cup, it has flexibility too. But we can't present all options without making too confusing.
But let's get the number of weeks and matches sorted out, and if need be, I'm sure slavista/oliver/myself can amend the competition based on that (even if in our eyes it isn't as good, we will still aim for the best and fairest competitions possible)
(edited)
When the time comes, what we need are ideas that will work for all sizes of countries, whether it be 1 user or 10k users. If we can do that, then if further country expansions occur due to more users joining, it can be done without disadvantaging them. And this is where the international part of this combined idea in this thread, works well. No country has an advantage, everyone is free to determine their own destiny, and it does not rely on others/bots from their own country.
There is some flexibility that can be implemented too, as in number of auto promos (from 1/4, to 1/2 to 1/1), number of weeks of group phase, whether it should be all countries or certain regions etc. And the same can be said with the league cup, it has flexibility too. But we can't present all options without making too confusing.
But let's get the number of weeks and matches sorted out, and if need be, I'm sure slavista/oliver/myself can amend the competition based on that (even if in our eyes it isn't as good, we will still aim for the best and fairest competitions possible)
(edited)
We dont know how many weeks we will play. im not for competition where half of league is in chance to go in lower division, but also have option to stay. All comes down to this playoff
It's true. It can be a problem for small countries and maybe it should be considered in the future with more users.
Anyway, I want to see dev's purpose.
Anyway, I want to see dev's purpose.
Yeah, I think there are definitely versions that could be considered should the users of all nations increase to a level where there are at least 2 competitive league (or 3 leagues with users), but it isn't the reality just yet.
The more users that join sokker, especially if they are more even across countries, the more exciting and expansive we can make competitions (whether they get accepted is a whole new story, but we can make them haha), but if we go too far too early, and ostracize (leave out/disadvantage), the small countries now, we won't have them in the future.
The more users that join sokker, especially if they are more even across countries, the more exciting and expansive we can make competitions (whether they get accepted is a whole new story, but we can make them haha), but if we go too far too early, and ostracize (leave out/disadvantage), the small countries now, we won't have them in the future.
thank you, I'll keep participate in the forums. These new era of sokker is exciting for me. I'm glad to see here people engaged to changes. And devs answering, of course :)
The combination of league and cup system
level 1- 8 groups of 8 teams (64 teams)
level 2- 32 groups of 8 teams (256)
level 3- 128 groups of 8 teams (1024)
level 4- 512 groups of 8 teams (4096)
level 5- 2048 groups of 8 teams (16384)
21824 teams in total
12 team competition in 14 weeks
level 1- 8 groups of 12 teams (96 teams)
level 2- 40 groups of 12 teams (480)
level 3- 200 groups of 12 teams (2400)
level 4- 1000 groups of 12 teams (12000)
19296 teams in total
League 11 matches
Top 2 from each group advance to champions round. Other in relegation round. Level 1*2*3 is shown bellow
week 12 8vs8+40vs40****40vs40+200vs200****200vs200+1000vs1000
week 13 4vs4+20vs20****20vs20+100vs100****100vs100+500vs500
week 14 2vs2+10vs10****10vs10+50vs50******50vs50+250vs250
League lvl 1 lose 10 teams, can be 0 per league or can be 10(hard but possible), depends how they showed in relegation round. Its 1.2 per league of 12 teams, and really bad teams will drop out(you need to lose all 3 games in knock-out)
Week 15 or special day(in 14 weeks competition which i would prefer more) is reserved for top division final game. We have champions league in RL on other day that all games are played and only one game. (We can even setup 3rd place match)
This competition doesnt give you winner of league lvl 2, but do you need it? It can completely replace current international competition that we have. Just a fact that you are playing 1st division is good result. 96 teams top league also close to number of nations in sokker. Main thing is that we are all playing.
level 1- 8 groups of 8 teams (64 teams)
level 2- 32 groups of 8 teams (256)
level 3- 128 groups of 8 teams (1024)
level 4- 512 groups of 8 teams (4096)
level 5- 2048 groups of 8 teams (16384)
21824 teams in total
12 team competition in 14 weeks
level 1- 8 groups of 12 teams (96 teams)
level 2- 40 groups of 12 teams (480)
level 3- 200 groups of 12 teams (2400)
level 4- 1000 groups of 12 teams (12000)
19296 teams in total
League 11 matches
Top 2 from each group advance to champions round. Other in relegation round. Level 1*2*3 is shown bellow
week 12 8vs8+40vs40****40vs40+200vs200****200vs200+1000vs1000
week 13 4vs4+20vs20****20vs20+100vs100****100vs100+500vs500
week 14 2vs2+10vs10****10vs10+50vs50******50vs50+250vs250
League lvl 1 lose 10 teams, can be 0 per league or can be 10(hard but possible), depends how they showed in relegation round. Its 1.2 per league of 12 teams, and really bad teams will drop out(you need to lose all 3 games in knock-out)
Week 15 or special day(in 14 weeks competition which i would prefer more) is reserved for top division final game. We have champions league in RL on other day that all games are played and only one game. (We can even setup 3rd place match)
This competition doesnt give you winner of league lvl 2, but do you need it? It can completely replace current international competition that we have. Just a fact that you are playing 1st division is good result. 96 teams top league also close to number of nations in sokker. Main thing is that we are all playing.
As div 1 teams don't qualify for a league cup, there should be a continental cup based on those from div 1.
Using a draw similar to the one listed below.
It would easily allow for teams entering at different weeks, meaning the cup could start a week or two earlier, to allow more teams to compete.
There are already free cup generators out there that allow you to enter any number of teams, and it will generate a cup draw based on those teams. All sokker would have to do is search for compatible teams that don't already have a match on, and that have no already entered. Should be pretty simple to so and will give everyone what they want
Using a draw similar to the one listed below.
It would easily allow for teams entering at different weeks, meaning the cup could start a week or two earlier, to allow more teams to compete.
There are already free cup generators out there that allow you to enter any number of teams, and it will generate a cup draw based on those teams. All sokker would have to do is search for compatible teams that don't already have a match on, and that have no already entered. Should be pretty simple to so and will give everyone what they want
Version 2.2 New Competition Structure is here. This is the collective work of many users especially slavista, OLIVER ATON and myself. The main update to this, is giving a Continental cup to those too high to qualify for the league cup. This ensures the best from each country, within each continent, has a chance to play off for the best team in the continent.
It also accounts for the fact that many countries finish their cup at different stages of the season.
For the new additions, scroll to the bottom
***League:***
8 clubs in a league playing home-away system against each other, 14 rounds with play off (the same system as today only without week 15 and week 0). Play-off is played on Wednesday at week 14. Teams which don't play League Play-off can arrange warm-up match on Wednesday at week 14. It is arranged like friendly but it has the same effects on training as official matches.
***International cup:***
The combination of league and cup system
level 1- 8 groups of 8 teams (64 teams)
level 2- 32 groups of 8 teams (256)
level 3- 128 groups of 8 teams (1024)
level 4- 512 groups of 8 teams (4096)
level 5- 2048 groups of 8 teams (16384)
21824 teams in total
Group stage
1) 8 teams in each group - they play once with each other - 7 rounds
Play-off stage
2) Teams placed 1st to 4th in group stage continue to play in Championship group competing for final 1th to 64th position and teams placed 5th to 8th in the group stage play Relegation group for final 65th to 128th position
3) The system of draws in the play-off stage is demonstrated on the picture below
8 groups create one **Isolated cup within the level. On the picture, you can see a small part of such isolated Cup with groups A B C D E F G H.
level 1- 8 groups (1 isolated cup)
level 2- 32 groups (4 isolated cups)
level 3- 128 groups (16 isolated cups)
level 4- 512 groups (64 isolated cups)
level 5- 2048 groups (256 isolated cups)
The draw of the first play-off round in Championship group is: 1st in group A vs 4th in B; 2nd in A vs 3rd in B; 3rd in A vs 2nd in B and 4th in A vs 1st in B
The draw of the first play-off round in Relegation group is: 5st in group A vs 8th in B; 6th in A vs 7th in B; 7th in A vs 6th in B and 8th in A vs 5th in B
4) Every team battles for reaching the better half of the range he is competing in the current round. A team that wins in 1-16. range in the second round plays in range 1-8. in the third round and a team that loses plays in range 9-16.
5) Every team plays 12 matches (7 group stage + 5 play-off stage) and every team reaches a certain position between 1th and 64th place at the end of the cup
6) After the play-off stage all teams at the same level are sorted by: 1) Final position in their cup 2) Points in group stage 3) Scored combined in group stage and play-off stage
7) The system of play-off is the same as in the League nowadays.
Example: In level 2 there are 256 teams in 32 groups. 8 best teams are promoted directly. Another 24 teams (9-32th place in level 2) play play-off for promotion. 32 worst teams (225-256th place in level 2) are relegated directly. Other 96 teams (129-224th place) play qualification for remaining in level 2.
8) Teams that don't play International Cup Play-off can arrange warm-up match on Wednesday week 13. It is arranged like friendly but it has the same effects on training as official matches.
***National cup:***
The same system as nowadays. All teams in the country participate. Every round the pool of teams is reduced by half until the final. If you are eliminated from the National Cup and you don't participate in the League Cup you can arrange a friendly match.
***League cup:***
This competition is only for weaker teams who were eliminated from the National cup early. It has a smaller prestige and bonus effects on training than the National cup, but it gives users another chance to compete in the cup with opponents who are closer to their level. Teams within a country will compete against only those within their Division.
***REGIONAL CUP***
This cup is designed for the teams within a country that are too high to qualify for the league cup/still in the national cup when the league cup stands. At this stage I have listed up to a 512 team draw, but currently no continent requires this, so the cup could start later (this is just in there to show the ability to expand when sokker expands, which is something the DEVs want ideas to do)
It will work as a standard cup draw, where you know who is next up depending on who wins.
To account for finishing the national cup at different times, there will be Reserved Places in future rounds of the cup, which those knocked out/finished their national cup, will slide in to. As these are the best teams from a bigger country anyway, they were always likely to make it to that point in the cup, so it doesn't change much.
Here is an example of this reserved spots working, where country B still had one round to go in their cup, and country C still had two rounds to go in their cup (note this is just an example of a very small competition because looking at a full 256 draw would make it too small in the forum)
Example: For somewhere like the Asian region, who would require a 256 draw, All countries except Indonesia, China and Viet Nam would be commencing with their full team list at the start of the cup (Indonesia and China would be missing their finalists, and Viet Nam missing their final 8.
Indonesia and Zhonghou finalists would join reserved places at the 128 team stage (round 2) along with Viet Nams Quarter final losers, Viet Nams Semi final losers would join at 64 team stage, and Viet Nam finalists would join at the 32 team stage.
This has been tested in every region, and would work given current and future nations within each region.
The major benefits of this continental cup are:
- it allows for competition within regions
- it gives something for those who do not qualify for the league cup, a competition to join (this is especially important in small nations who will have a national cup finishing before the league cup even starts)
- it stops teams from "camping" in Div II just so they can win the League Cup
- It provides great banter between nations, and a competitive competition which will see different teams winning each year
- By limiting to just those who don't qualify for the League Cup, it limits the size of the draw, meaning it can start later in the season, and each continental cup can accommodate each region (even Europe).
*When you are eliminated from National Cup/League cup and you don't play any cup match next week, you can arrange a friendly. Friendlies, unlike official matches, have only minimal impact on training.
(edited)
It also accounts for the fact that many countries finish their cup at different stages of the season.
For the new additions, scroll to the bottom
***League:***
8 clubs in a league playing home-away system against each other, 14 rounds with play off (the same system as today only without week 15 and week 0). Play-off is played on Wednesday at week 14. Teams which don't play League Play-off can arrange warm-up match on Wednesday at week 14. It is arranged like friendly but it has the same effects on training as official matches.
***International cup:***
The combination of league and cup system
level 1- 8 groups of 8 teams (64 teams)
level 2- 32 groups of 8 teams (256)
level 3- 128 groups of 8 teams (1024)
level 4- 512 groups of 8 teams (4096)
level 5- 2048 groups of 8 teams (16384)
21824 teams in total
Group stage
1) 8 teams in each group - they play once with each other - 7 rounds
Play-off stage
2) Teams placed 1st to 4th in group stage continue to play in Championship group competing for final 1th to 64th position and teams placed 5th to 8th in the group stage play Relegation group for final 65th to 128th position
3) The system of draws in the play-off stage is demonstrated on the picture below
8 groups create one **Isolated cup within the level. On the picture, you can see a small part of such isolated Cup with groups A B C D E F G H.
level 1- 8 groups (1 isolated cup)
level 2- 32 groups (4 isolated cups)
level 3- 128 groups (16 isolated cups)
level 4- 512 groups (64 isolated cups)
level 5- 2048 groups (256 isolated cups)
The draw of the first play-off round in Championship group is: 1st in group A vs 4th in B; 2nd in A vs 3rd in B; 3rd in A vs 2nd in B and 4th in A vs 1st in B
The draw of the first play-off round in Relegation group is: 5st in group A vs 8th in B; 6th in A vs 7th in B; 7th in A vs 6th in B and 8th in A vs 5th in B
4) Every team battles for reaching the better half of the range he is competing in the current round. A team that wins in 1-16. range in the second round plays in range 1-8. in the third round and a team that loses plays in range 9-16.
5) Every team plays 12 matches (7 group stage + 5 play-off stage) and every team reaches a certain position between 1th and 64th place at the end of the cup
6) After the play-off stage all teams at the same level are sorted by: 1) Final position in their cup 2) Points in group stage 3) Scored combined in group stage and play-off stage
7) The system of play-off is the same as in the League nowadays.
Example: In level 2 there are 256 teams in 32 groups. 8 best teams are promoted directly. Another 24 teams (9-32th place in level 2) play play-off for promotion. 32 worst teams (225-256th place in level 2) are relegated directly. Other 96 teams (129-224th place) play qualification for remaining in level 2.
8) Teams that don't play International Cup Play-off can arrange warm-up match on Wednesday week 13. It is arranged like friendly but it has the same effects on training as official matches.
***National cup:***
The same system as nowadays. All teams in the country participate. Every round the pool of teams is reduced by half until the final. If you are eliminated from the National Cup and you don't participate in the League Cup you can arrange a friendly match.
***League cup:***
This competition is only for weaker teams who were eliminated from the National cup early. It has a smaller prestige and bonus effects on training than the National cup, but it gives users another chance to compete in the cup with opponents who are closer to their level. Teams within a country will compete against only those within their Division.
***REGIONAL CUP***
This cup is designed for the teams within a country that are too high to qualify for the league cup/still in the national cup when the league cup stands. At this stage I have listed up to a 512 team draw, but currently no continent requires this, so the cup could start later (this is just in there to show the ability to expand when sokker expands, which is something the DEVs want ideas to do)
It will work as a standard cup draw, where you know who is next up depending on who wins.
To account for finishing the national cup at different times, there will be Reserved Places in future rounds of the cup, which those knocked out/finished their national cup, will slide in to. As these are the best teams from a bigger country anyway, they were always likely to make it to that point in the cup, so it doesn't change much.
Here is an example of this reserved spots working, where country B still had one round to go in their cup, and country C still had two rounds to go in their cup (note this is just an example of a very small competition because looking at a full 256 draw would make it too small in the forum)
Example: For somewhere like the Asian region, who would require a 256 draw, All countries except Indonesia, China and Viet Nam would be commencing with their full team list at the start of the cup (Indonesia and China would be missing their finalists, and Viet Nam missing their final 8.
Indonesia and Zhonghou finalists would join reserved places at the 128 team stage (round 2) along with Viet Nams Quarter final losers, Viet Nams Semi final losers would join at 64 team stage, and Viet Nam finalists would join at the 32 team stage.
This has been tested in every region, and would work given current and future nations within each region.
The major benefits of this continental cup are:
- it allows for competition within regions
- it gives something for those who do not qualify for the league cup, a competition to join (this is especially important in small nations who will have a national cup finishing before the league cup even starts)
- it stops teams from "camping" in Div II just so they can win the League Cup
- It provides great banter between nations, and a competitive competition which will see different teams winning each year
- By limiting to just those who don't qualify for the League Cup, it limits the size of the draw, meaning it can start later in the season, and each continental cup can accommodate each region (even Europe).
*When you are eliminated from National Cup/League cup and you don't play any cup match next week, you can arrange a friendly. Friendlies, unlike official matches, have only minimal impact on training.
(edited)