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Subject: [idea] What users really want
It's a eternal discussion but Do you think that an international tournament that doesn't exist would attract new users? even some users from small countries reject this, in fact the idea of more prestigious cups and not this unreal and boring cup comes from one of them (cibao from Republica Dominicana where there are 17 users). There will continue to be differents ratings in international league because users will use for training or they will focus on the national league or vice versa (even the national league could stop being important). With 12 teams for example, if a user disappears there are 10 others teams and for sure more of your similar level.
If you have 12 teams (for example) in national league and 2 league matches per week it wouldn't be so boring.
The idea was great and I supported it but thinking about training.
If you do an international league with promotion/relegation, then delete national league. It's the same.
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If you have 12 teams (for example) in national league and 2 league matches per week it wouldn't be so boring.
The idea was great and I supported it but thinking about training.
If you do an international league with promotion/relegation, then delete national league. It's the same.
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Why do we need to delete National League? They can work in tandem. They are just different leagues, and give you two chances to win something that season.
An International League may attract old users back who left because the national cup was so boring in their country. An International League will help maintain users as it will give more people to get to know, to develop rivalries with, to have a close match every week.
The training argument is redundant in multiple levels.
Firstly why does it matter if someone uses it for training? If they use it for training every season, they will just find themselves in a league that is of the correct strength for their trainees, where those trainees have close matches each week as well, so that will still be exciting.
In a 2 league match per week, people still need to use their trainees somewhere, so it will have to be in the national league (if you say they will use it in cup matches or friendlies, then this is no different to an international and national league format season).
But if they use their B-teams against some teams in their league (either very weak or very strong teams), and use A-Teams against others, this is not exactly fair if you are a team trying to win the league, or trying to avoid autorelegation, and teams choose to use their A-team against you, and not against your major competition.
So already it would be better if there was a set league or competition they could use trainees, and as I said above, if they use B-team in International League, that is fine, because they will still find good competition due to the promotion and relegation structure.
And I've already shown you why 12 teams does not improve things for most small nations. You are literally adding bots or new players to Div 1's. Yay, that must be fun for the experienced user who now just has more fodder, or the new user who can now no longer beat anyone. Or if there are 16-20 users in a nation, the new user now gets to play even more bots. Surely it would be better for both these users, that if they are stuck in a league at the national level, where there is noone, or minimal people their own level, that they have another competition where they will be with people their own level, not just more matches against people who arent their own level.
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An International League may attract old users back who left because the national cup was so boring in their country. An International League will help maintain users as it will give more people to get to know, to develop rivalries with, to have a close match every week.
The training argument is redundant in multiple levels.
Firstly why does it matter if someone uses it for training? If they use it for training every season, they will just find themselves in a league that is of the correct strength for their trainees, where those trainees have close matches each week as well, so that will still be exciting.
In a 2 league match per week, people still need to use their trainees somewhere, so it will have to be in the national league (if you say they will use it in cup matches or friendlies, then this is no different to an international and national league format season).
But if they use their B-teams against some teams in their league (either very weak or very strong teams), and use A-Teams against others, this is not exactly fair if you are a team trying to win the league, or trying to avoid autorelegation, and teams choose to use their A-team against you, and not against your major competition.
So already it would be better if there was a set league or competition they could use trainees, and as I said above, if they use B-team in International League, that is fine, because they will still find good competition due to the promotion and relegation structure.
And I've already shown you why 12 teams does not improve things for most small nations. You are literally adding bots or new players to Div 1's. Yay, that must be fun for the experienced user who now just has more fodder, or the new user who can now no longer beat anyone. Or if there are 16-20 users in a nation, the new user now gets to play even more bots. Surely it would be better for both these users, that if they are stuck in a league at the national level, where there is noone, or minimal people their own level, that they have another competition where they will be with people their own level, not just more matches against people who arent their own level.
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We are highjacking Slavistas thread to have this discussion, so if you need me to explain more, please take it to sk-mail.
I'm not sure if their is a language barrier, or I need to explain in a different way, but as I have already answered questions you asked again or tried to point out in your second post, I think I may need to explain it in a different way for you to see it.
I'm not sure if their is a language barrier, or I need to explain in a different way, but as I have already answered questions you asked again or tried to point out in your second post, I think I may need to explain it in a different way for you to see it.
achmid, I agree with you on small communities arguments
A combined International league, where he can fight for promotion and relegation on his own terms, would give him something to have fun with until others can increase their strength and fight in the national league. As shown by the Poland example, he would be, at worst, playing teams within an 8-14pt difference from top to bottom (and I argue less because of how numbers affect quality of a league), as opposed to his current 18-21pt difference.
Teams small countries could really benefit from a competition where they have real opponents every week/match and have more fun.
The training argument is redundant in multiple levels.
Firstly why does it matter if someone uses it for training? If they use it for training every season, they will just find themselves in a league that is of the correct strength for their trainees, where those trainees have close matches each week as well, so that will still be exciting.
In a 2 league match per week, people still need to use their trainees somewhere, so it will have to be in the national league (if you say they will use it in cup matches or friendlies, then this is no different to an international and national league format season).
But if they use their B-teams against some teams in their league (either very weak or very strong teams), and use A-Teams against others, this is not exactly fair if you are a team trying to win the league, or trying to avoid autorelegation, and teams choose to use their A-team against you, and not against your major competition.
I made similar argument. In order to win you have to get rid of trainees, thus having A team of 8-10 trainees, so no need for second league match same week.
An International League may attract old users back who left because the national cup was so boring in their country. An International League will help maintain users as it will give more people to get to know, to develop rivalries with, to have a close match every week.
Do we really know reasons they left?
I can think of injuries and lack of interest.
A combined International league, where he can fight for promotion and relegation on his own terms, would give him something to have fun with until others can increase their strength and fight in the national league. As shown by the Poland example, he would be, at worst, playing teams within an 8-14pt difference from top to bottom (and I argue less because of how numbers affect quality of a league), as opposed to his current 18-21pt difference.
Teams small countries could really benefit from a competition where they have real opponents every week/match and have more fun.
The training argument is redundant in multiple levels.
Firstly why does it matter if someone uses it for training? If they use it for training every season, they will just find themselves in a league that is of the correct strength for their trainees, where those trainees have close matches each week as well, so that will still be exciting.
In a 2 league match per week, people still need to use their trainees somewhere, so it will have to be in the national league (if you say they will use it in cup matches or friendlies, then this is no different to an international and national league format season).
But if they use their B-teams against some teams in their league (either very weak or very strong teams), and use A-Teams against others, this is not exactly fair if you are a team trying to win the league, or trying to avoid autorelegation, and teams choose to use their A-team against you, and not against your major competition.
I made similar argument. In order to win you have to get rid of trainees, thus having A team of 8-10 trainees, so no need for second league match same week.
An International League may attract old users back who left because the national cup was so boring in their country. An International League will help maintain users as it will give more people to get to know, to develop rivalries with, to have a close match every week.
Do we really know reasons they left?
I can think of injuries and lack of interest.
Sorry for Slavista.
Well, at the end of season some users will have 3 leagues (national league, national cup league, and international league). For sure very attractive for everyone xD.
For my part there will be no motivation for any competition and it will not matter to me what position I get in the national league. I think it would be a big mistake and we'll lose the football essence. This will back again to play for training (six players in corner).
Some users will prefer one league in detriment of another and there will be no competitiveness in any league. Keep in mind small countries will grow for sure and anyway some of them prefer attractive tournaments.
I'll answer you by skm in order to not hijacking more the thread.
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Well, at the end of season some users will have 3 leagues (national league, national cup league, and international league). For sure very attractive for everyone xD.
For my part there will be no motivation for any competition and it will not matter to me what position I get in the national league. I think it would be a big mistake and we'll lose the football essence. This will back again to play for training (six players in corner).
Some users will prefer one league in detriment of another and there will be no competitiveness in any league. Keep in mind small countries will grow for sure and anyway some of them prefer attractive tournaments.
I'll answer you by skm in order to not hijacking more the thread.
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I literally have no idea why having another competition would suddenly make all competitions unattractive. The national league would exactly as it is now, you would just have a more competitive international league as well, and will give all users something, not just those in larger nations.
It's like only having having one McDonald's in town. Why would adding. KFC suddenly make both unattractive? You still have your McDonald's, but now you are giving an option to those who only eat chicken who haven't had that before. Better than just building more McDonald's so you have to walk a slight less distance too
It's like only having having one McDonald's in town. Why would adding. KFC suddenly make both unattractive? You still have your McDonald's, but now you are giving an option to those who only eat chicken who haven't had that before. Better than just building more McDonald's so you have to walk a slight less distance too
I agree with rapelo. An international league can be a mistake if it is not done well. This may be unimportant or the national league may be unimportant. I think it's a bad idea to have two independent leagues. One of the two will have little importance, this will be real.
"if it is not done well"
Which is why we have been focusing on how to do it well.
Also any "importance" it user dependent. Why is it a bad thing if someone decides one or the other is unimportant. For many small nations the national league is unimportant, because they either have no competition or no chance of winning. So at present they don't have an important league at all, they are staying in Sokker due to loyalty, not fun.
So you are condemning them to forever a non-important league in the game. How is this fair?
It's nice you guys are from countries that have >100 users, but this is not the majority of countries in sokker, so unless you want to cut the countries down to just those with >100 users, which has it's own problems, you need to find a way that everyone has something to actually do in the game. I know you don't think about this now because you already have it, but until you play in a small country, you have no idea.
Which is why we have been focusing on how to do it well.
Also any "importance" it user dependent. Why is it a bad thing if someone decides one or the other is unimportant. For many small nations the national league is unimportant, because they either have no competition or no chance of winning. So at present they don't have an important league at all, they are staying in Sokker due to loyalty, not fun.
So you are condemning them to forever a non-important league in the game. How is this fair?
It's nice you guys are from countries that have >100 users, but this is not the majority of countries in sokker, so unless you want to cut the countries down to just those with >100 users, which has it's own problems, you need to find a way that everyone has something to actually do in the game. I know you don't think about this now because you already have it, but until you play in a small country, you have no idea.
it is not so hard to make a concept of the Sunday League being the most important matches people look forward to. It is actually the only option next to the Sunday-Wednesday League. I understand that this second option is not attractive to users
from small countries. 2 league matches per week doesnt help them and it means that there will be no international competition because people dont want more than 3 matches per week.
You can say about every new implementation that it can be mistake if not done well.
from small countries. 2 league matches per week doesnt help them and it means that there will be no international competition because people dont want more than 3 matches per week.
You can say about every new implementation that it can be mistake if not done well.
If the developers do something that has no benefit for small countries, I would prefer they just come out and say, screw all you 60 countries, we don't want to make a competition that suits small nations, pick another country and we will move your team there..
rather than, implement and let the small nations just disappear overtime pretending like the changes were not the cause of it.
Whilst a lot of experienced users do see what needs to be done to make sure all countries get a benefit, there are also a lot that only think about their own preference and not how it will affect others, or how it will kill other nations.
I'm not going to leave if the changes just benefit large nations, and have very little or nothing for small nations, but all those who I just recruited will leave, which will then make it boring for me, and then I will leave, and Australia will be back down to the leader, who was strongly wanting to leave just before I showed up, another who is one of the oldest in sokker, who had basically gone inactive til a couple of us came back, and a couple of people who keep their team going along, but don't talk in forums, didn't have youth clubs for 10yrs, and still don't understand the training.....and there are 40 nations with less users than Australia, so will suffer the same fate
rather than, implement and let the small nations just disappear overtime pretending like the changes were not the cause of it.
Whilst a lot of experienced users do see what needs to be done to make sure all countries get a benefit, there are also a lot that only think about their own preference and not how it will affect others, or how it will kill other nations.
I'm not going to leave if the changes just benefit large nations, and have very little or nothing for small nations, but all those who I just recruited will leave, which will then make it boring for me, and then I will leave, and Australia will be back down to the leader, who was strongly wanting to leave just before I showed up, another who is one of the oldest in sokker, who had basically gone inactive til a couple of us came back, and a couple of people who keep their team going along, but don't talk in forums, didn't have youth clubs for 10yrs, and still don't understand the training.....and there are 40 nations with less users than Australia, so will suffer the same fate
I still cannot believe people ignore this conflict of numbers
1) Season length
(40 users for this option) for 15-16 weeks or more
(14) for 14-15 weeks
(6) for shortening up to 12-13 weeks
(15) would accept a shortening of the season, but did not state by how much
2) Competition system and number of matches per week
(29) for one league match per week
(14) would accept both variants - one or two league matches per week
(25) for two or more league matches per week
3) Number of teams in the league
(24) to keep the current number of teams in the league
(18) to increase the number of teams in the league
(13) Under certain conditions, both options would be acceptable (8 teams in the league or more teams)
I have received 11 new answers since yestarday. 6 of them were in favor of keeping the current system.
And here I am to believe that there is nothing wrong with the poll and if I asked those 99 people again about their preferences, about 63 of them would tell me they prefer the Option n. 3.
1) Season length
(40 users for this option) for 15-16 weeks or more
(14) for 14-15 weeks
(6) for shortening up to 12-13 weeks
(15) would accept a shortening of the season, but did not state by how much
2) Competition system and number of matches per week
(29) for one league match per week
(14) would accept both variants - one or two league matches per week
(25) for two or more league matches per week
3) Number of teams in the league
(24) to keep the current number of teams in the league
(18) to increase the number of teams in the league
(13) Under certain conditions, both options would be acceptable (8 teams in the league or more teams)
I have received 11 new answers since yestarday. 6 of them were in favor of keeping the current system.
And here I am to believe that there is nothing wrong with the poll and if I asked those 99 people again about their preferences, about 63 of them would tell me they prefer the Option n. 3.
Anyway starting the surveys by offering people specific options without knowing their general opinions is just amateurish and nonconceptual. How am I supposed to believe that all the further changes will be well thought when even something as simple as the survey is so messed up and Devs pretend that everything is ok even though it is not?
This will be my last post here (sorry slavista).
If finally the independent international league is created you'll see the problems. Only wait it. For my part and other people I know (even from small countries) we'll end up getting tired because there are no motivating tournaments.
Maybe the solution could be to do a international league with small countries at their request, or another type of tournament. We can't have 2-3 leagues (with national cup for lowest teams) and no attractive tournaments what is the football essence and the main motivation of a game. The big dream of many teams in Europe is to play the champions league even though they are later eliminated. Maybe in your region other tournaments are more important (like OFC). I think your team can compete in something like "champions" or "uefa" or at least play the group stage. I think it would be more motivating for you that playing a boring league.
We can't have national league, international league, national cup, and not having the most prestigious tournaments of the world. All ARE NOT COMPATIBLE, it would be a week full of games with national teams (an important part of the game for many users).
Maybe could be done an international arcade league as a user proposed, but not creating a international league that will be for a lot of users used for training, or maybe the national league will lose its importance and many people will not have the motivation to play against 6 players in the corner (play for training).
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If finally the independent international league is created you'll see the problems. Only wait it. For my part and other people I know (even from small countries) we'll end up getting tired because there are no motivating tournaments.
Maybe the solution could be to do a international league with small countries at their request, or another type of tournament. We can't have 2-3 leagues (with national cup for lowest teams) and no attractive tournaments what is the football essence and the main motivation of a game. The big dream of many teams in Europe is to play the champions league even though they are later eliminated. Maybe in your region other tournaments are more important (like OFC). I think your team can compete in something like "champions" or "uefa" or at least play the group stage. I think it would be more motivating for you that playing a boring league.
We can't have national league, international league, national cup, and not having the most prestigious tournaments of the world. All ARE NOT COMPATIBLE, it would be a week full of games with national teams (an important part of the game for many users).
Maybe could be done an international arcade league as a user proposed, but not creating a international league that will be for a lot of users used for training, or maybe the national league will lose its importance and many people will not have the motivation to play against 6 players in the corner (play for training).
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we'll end up getting tired because there are no motivating tournaments. - so you are saying, you have played 13yrs without a motivating tournament? Given we make zero changes to National League, so it will be exactly the same.
"We can't have national league, international league, national cup, and not having the most prestigious tournaments of the world" - I have pushed for a continental tournament or continental cup, but it has largely been pushed under the rug
"Maybe the solution could be to do a international league with small countries" - This has been proposed, and small nations are happy with it, but it has been denied
"(with national cup for lowest teams)" - why lowest teams? In proposition 2, (and I believe 1), all teams are part of national cups.
"it would be a week full of games with national teams (an important part of the game for many users)" - both options 1 and 2 literally have the same number of matches per week
"but not creating a international league that will be for a lot of users used for training, or maybe the national league will lose its importance and many people will not have the motivation to play against 6 players in the corner (play for training)." - with a promotion and relegation system, anyone who plays only in the corners, will drop to the bottom, and only play other people playing in the corner, so that will sort itself out. It will affect noone but corner players. And like I said, if you have two matches per week for the national league, you will have people playing one game for training, and one for serious every week. That makes the national league less prestigious as every second match will be 2nds playing.
"We can't have national league, international league, national cup, and not having the most prestigious tournaments of the world" - I have pushed for a continental tournament or continental cup, but it has largely been pushed under the rug
"Maybe the solution could be to do a international league with small countries" - This has been proposed, and small nations are happy with it, but it has been denied
"(with national cup for lowest teams)" - why lowest teams? In proposition 2, (and I believe 1), all teams are part of national cups.
"it would be a week full of games with national teams (an important part of the game for many users)" - both options 1 and 2 literally have the same number of matches per week
"but not creating a international league that will be for a lot of users used for training, or maybe the national league will lose its importance and many people will not have the motivation to play against 6 players in the corner (play for training)." - with a promotion and relegation system, anyone who plays only in the corners, will drop to the bottom, and only play other people playing in the corner, so that will sort itself out. It will affect noone but corner players. And like I said, if you have two matches per week for the national league, you will have people playing one game for training, and one for serious every week. That makes the national league less prestigious as every second match will be 2nds playing.
It's amazing how different your responses are.
I'm not sure who said it, but if these results are real, and there aren't people affecting them somehow, then those voting are people who have quit/never played the game ie the non-loyal ones. There is no guarantee they will stick around after leaving already, whereas the loyal ones, are here voting the opposite direction, and more likely to leave.
It's very interesting indeed
I'm not sure who said it, but if these results are real, and there aren't people affecting them somehow, then those voting are people who have quit/never played the game ie the non-loyal ones. There is no guarantee they will stick around after leaving already, whereas the loyal ones, are here voting the opposite direction, and more likely to leave.
It's very interesting indeed
