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Subject: Second Team - bound to motherclub
If those new users enter the game in a country with only 10 or less users, it's more than likely they will quit within the next 3 months (and that's an optimistic period)
that's due to community and interactions, if you suddenly add Polish or Italian users to Kenya or Marocco it will be counterproductive
It is in this state. But when the game has been updated completely, that means with communication features from this time, like discord f.e., it might not be too late.
a. please show me an example of this kind of slow-paced game that was launched in last 10 years and is still active, with many users...
b. how old are you and how many new browser games have you joined in last couple of years?
(edited)
that's due to community and interactions, if you suddenly add Polish or Italian users to Kenya or Marocco it will be counterproductive
It is in this state. But when the game has been updated completely, that means with communication features from this time, like discord f.e., it might not be too late.
a. please show me an example of this kind of slow-paced game that was launched in last 10 years and is still active, with many users...
b. how old are you and how many new browser games have you joined in last couple of years?
(edited)
Its becomes off topic...
We could speculate and hope for news users or not... but whatever.
A 2d team help, mechanically, to increase teams, not users.
We could speculate and hope for news users or not... but whatever.
A 2d team help, mechanically, to increase teams, not users.
Fact is that the amount of real teams is the issue within the small countries, not the amount of users.
Also, the amount of users within a small country will increase with the same amount as the teams are, since all users are either new or from other countries.
that's due to community and interactions, if you suddenly add Polish or Italian users to Kenya or Marocco it will be counterproductive
why? I also said that language is key in deciding which countries will reïnforce small countries.
a. please show me an example of this kind of slow-paced game that was launched in last 10 years and is still active, with many users...
Again...why? Sokker is unique in many ways. You don't need to compare this with hattrick or any other manager game.
b. how old are you and how many new browser games have you joined in last couple of years?
I'm 42, but that's irrelevant. I haven't joined new browser games after I joined sokker in 2006. I did leave hattrick in 2010 though...
I cannot speak for the next generations, but sokker was looking towards a certain death in 2020, but the new devs saved it and now there are still around 9k users playing the game. If you're going to look for the durability of the game, I think sokker is far stronger than games like Football Manager.
And the reason is simple. Sokker evolves and generates new players infinitely. And the community is incredible once you get to know them.
Do you have any idea how many games with +1M users have been pulled the plug in the last 10 years? Why was that?
- Because there were new and better games, similar to those games, brought onto the market and the users switched their interest like normal people switch underware.
There's not a single game, similar to sokker, being brought onto the market and THAT is the biggest strength of sokker, along with it's community and our sence of loyalty to the game.
Also, the amount of users within a small country will increase with the same amount as the teams are, since all users are either new or from other countries.
that's due to community and interactions, if you suddenly add Polish or Italian users to Kenya or Marocco it will be counterproductive
why? I also said that language is key in deciding which countries will reïnforce small countries.
a. please show me an example of this kind of slow-paced game that was launched in last 10 years and is still active, with many users...
Again...why? Sokker is unique in many ways. You don't need to compare this with hattrick or any other manager game.
b. how old are you and how many new browser games have you joined in last couple of years?
I'm 42, but that's irrelevant. I haven't joined new browser games after I joined sokker in 2006. I did leave hattrick in 2010 though...
I cannot speak for the next generations, but sokker was looking towards a certain death in 2020, but the new devs saved it and now there are still around 9k users playing the game. If you're going to look for the durability of the game, I think sokker is far stronger than games like Football Manager.
And the reason is simple. Sokker evolves and generates new players infinitely. And the community is incredible once you get to know them.
Do you have any idea how many games with +1M users have been pulled the plug in the last 10 years? Why was that?
- Because there were new and better games, similar to those games, brought onto the market and the users switched their interest like normal people switch underware.
There's not a single game, similar to sokker, being brought onto the market and THAT is the biggest strength of sokker, along with it's community and our sence of loyalty to the game.
Again...why? Sokker is unique in many ways. You don't need to compare this with hattrick or any other manager game.
doesn't matter how typical or unique is it
those kind of games are dead/struggling/never take off after creation
it's a dead market, people don't want such games in 2022
I'm 42, but that's irrelevant. I haven't joined new browser games after I joined sokker in 2006. I did leave hattrick in 2010 though...
I'm 34, haven't started playing a new browser game in years
I don't have time for it, I don't care for such games anymore
I keep playing sokker for fun (I was inactive for years)
I cannot speak for the next generations, but sokker was looking towards a certain death in 2020, but the new devs saved it and now there are still around 9k users playing the game. If you're going to look for the durability of the game, I think sokker is far stronger than games like Football Manager.
it's a completely different game from FM and I have no idea how do you make that comparison, 10k users for FM would've been death, it has millions of users
I imagine there are many bots etc...anyway yes, some people joined the game, but many of them were people returning after years of leaving sokker
and 10k is still a very, very low number
the game will probably improve, new users will come etc. but I don't believe in anything near 100k stable users, I don't believe in 10-20yo users massively joining the game
And the reason is simple. Sokker evolves and generates new players infinitely.
so does Football Manager, did you actually play it? it generates youth players etc.
as for evolve...maybe in theory :-D in practice what was the last REAL improvement of the game, something that change the playing experience? Arcade games 10+ years ago?
There's not a single game, similar to sokker, being brought onto the market and THAT is the biggest strength of sokker, along with it's community and our sence of loyalty to the game.
the community is almost dead, I follow a couple of communities and it's a sad view, same goes for international
nowhere near where it was when people actually played the game, not only logged in
there were games like sokker that were brought to the market, for example football strategy (actually almost all the new changes in training etc. make sokker look like football strategy :-D) - problem is nobody wanted to play them
people play on consoles or mobile phones, young people want fast games, instant results/gratifications etc.
this is a fun game
but it's slow and it takes YEARS of VERY GOOD playing to reach anywhere near top level in big countries
starting from zero in 2022...yeah, no thanks
doesn't matter how typical or unique is it
those kind of games are dead/struggling/never take off after creation
it's a dead market, people don't want such games in 2022
I'm 42, but that's irrelevant. I haven't joined new browser games after I joined sokker in 2006. I did leave hattrick in 2010 though...
I'm 34, haven't started playing a new browser game in years
I don't have time for it, I don't care for such games anymore
I keep playing sokker for fun (I was inactive for years)
I cannot speak for the next generations, but sokker was looking towards a certain death in 2020, but the new devs saved it and now there are still around 9k users playing the game. If you're going to look for the durability of the game, I think sokker is far stronger than games like Football Manager.
it's a completely different game from FM and I have no idea how do you make that comparison, 10k users for FM would've been death, it has millions of users
I imagine there are many bots etc...anyway yes, some people joined the game, but many of them were people returning after years of leaving sokker
and 10k is still a very, very low number
the game will probably improve, new users will come etc. but I don't believe in anything near 100k stable users, I don't believe in 10-20yo users massively joining the game
And the reason is simple. Sokker evolves and generates new players infinitely.
so does Football Manager, did you actually play it? it generates youth players etc.
as for evolve...maybe in theory :-D in practice what was the last REAL improvement of the game, something that change the playing experience? Arcade games 10+ years ago?
There's not a single game, similar to sokker, being brought onto the market and THAT is the biggest strength of sokker, along with it's community and our sence of loyalty to the game.
the community is almost dead, I follow a couple of communities and it's a sad view, same goes for international
nowhere near where it was when people actually played the game, not only logged in
there were games like sokker that were brought to the market, for example football strategy (actually almost all the new changes in training etc. make sokker look like football strategy :-D) - problem is nobody wanted to play them
people play on consoles or mobile phones, young people want fast games, instant results/gratifications etc.
this is a fun game
but it's slow and it takes YEARS of VERY GOOD playing to reach anywhere near top level in big countries
starting from zero in 2022...yeah, no thanks
That's the pessimistic point of view. You could be right. But what's the value of such thinking? If the devs thought like this, sokker would be dead right now.
And there's a big difference in the kind of people playing this game and the kind of people playing the fast games.
My point about the comparison between sokker and FM is that nobody plays FM from 15 years ago! It's always a new game.
Maybe you play FM for 3 - 4 years tops, and then you don't. Because the teams are copies from real life. And it's because people want to train or play with the Mbape's or De Bruyne's of tomorrow, but playing with fictive players isn't the purpose of FM, where that IS the purpose of sokker.
Ok, this game is ageing, but still, there are lots of managers here that play sokker for the sole purpose of it being a part of their life and a part of their work / play for 10 - 15+ years irl. The community isn't dying, it's shrinking. But for sure it's imo one of the most hardcore communities in the history of football strategy games.
there were games like sokker that were brought to the market,
Did they had a tactic editor like sokker?
And there's a big difference in the kind of people playing this game and the kind of people playing the fast games.
My point about the comparison between sokker and FM is that nobody plays FM from 15 years ago! It's always a new game.
Maybe you play FM for 3 - 4 years tops, and then you don't. Because the teams are copies from real life. And it's because people want to train or play with the Mbape's or De Bruyne's of tomorrow, but playing with fictive players isn't the purpose of FM, where that IS the purpose of sokker.
Ok, this game is ageing, but still, there are lots of managers here that play sokker for the sole purpose of it being a part of their life and a part of their work / play for 10 - 15+ years irl. The community isn't dying, it's shrinking. But for sure it's imo one of the most hardcore communities in the history of football strategy games.
there were games like sokker that were brought to the market,
Did they had a tactic editor like sokker?
+1000!
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" it's imo one of the most hardcore communities in the history of football strategy games."
WOW!!!! WOOOOOW! Dtox9 is on fire and he writes the most apt sentence of all time!! :)))))))))))))))
----------------------
" it's imo one of the most hardcore communities in the history of football strategy games."
WOW!!!! WOOOOOW! Dtox9 is on fire and he writes the most apt sentence of all time!! :)))))))))))))))
I'm 34, haven't started playing a new browser game in years
I don't have time for it, I don't care for such games anymore
Brokos is also dropping some truth bombs :)
There was a time when I was looking for games like sokker, not anymore. I constantly download some mobile games though, I try them out. I'm not checking out browser games at all. They could make it big with an app (where you could watch matches), only sticking to browsers is slim pickings in terms of new users.
I don't have time for it, I don't care for such games anymore
Brokos is also dropping some truth bombs :)
There was a time when I was looking for games like sokker, not anymore. I constantly download some mobile games though, I try them out. I'm not checking out browser games at all. They could make it big with an app (where you could watch matches), only sticking to browsers is slim pickings in terms of new users.
My point about the comparison between sokker and FM is that nobody plays FM from 15 years ago! It's always a new game.
Maybe you play FM for 3 - 4 years tops, and then you don't. Because the teams are copies from real life. And it's because people want to train or play with the Mbape's or De Bruyne's of tomorrow, but playing with fictive players isn't the purpose of FM, where that IS the purpose of sokker.
your point is that people won't play FM for YEARS because they want real players and that's good for sokker how, since it has only fictional player...? :-P
also it's not true, people play FM for 15+ seasons often, the thing is that each year they receive an upgraded, better experience in form of newer game...sokker stays old and the same for years (now after YEARS, ten?! twelve? more?) they are changing something...and having problems doing so...
Ok, this game is ageing, but still, there are lots of managers here that play sokker for the sole purpose of it being a part of their life and a part of their work / play for 10 - 15+ years irl. The community isn't dying, it's shrinking. But for sure it's imo one of the most hardcore communities in the history of football strategy games.
and it has nothing to do with whether the game will attract new users...
plus as I've said, I'm not sure whether 2022 community is anywhere near 2012...different activity level completely, lots of trolls and annoying people...
Did they had a tactic editor like sokker?
yeah, something similar
there were also other games with sokker-like tactic, they didn't last
fun fact, in the new version of football strategy they are planning to use simple formation tactics (442, 352 etc.)
easier to understand and master, better for mass users
I agree that it's sokker's main advantage and why I loved the game, but honestly don't think it's an important factor for gathering huge user number
Maybe you play FM for 3 - 4 years tops, and then you don't. Because the teams are copies from real life. And it's because people want to train or play with the Mbape's or De Bruyne's of tomorrow, but playing with fictive players isn't the purpose of FM, where that IS the purpose of sokker.
your point is that people won't play FM for YEARS because they want real players and that's good for sokker how, since it has only fictional player...? :-P
also it's not true, people play FM for 15+ seasons often, the thing is that each year they receive an upgraded, better experience in form of newer game...sokker stays old and the same for years (now after YEARS, ten?! twelve? more?) they are changing something...and having problems doing so...
Ok, this game is ageing, but still, there are lots of managers here that play sokker for the sole purpose of it being a part of their life and a part of their work / play for 10 - 15+ years irl. The community isn't dying, it's shrinking. But for sure it's imo one of the most hardcore communities in the history of football strategy games.
and it has nothing to do with whether the game will attract new users...
plus as I've said, I'm not sure whether 2022 community is anywhere near 2012...different activity level completely, lots of trolls and annoying people...
Did they had a tactic editor like sokker?
yeah, something similar
there were also other games with sokker-like tactic, they didn't last
fun fact, in the new version of football strategy they are planning to use simple formation tactics (442, 352 etc.)
easier to understand and master, better for mass users
I agree that it's sokker's main advantage and why I loved the game, but honestly don't think it's an important factor for gathering huge user number
There was a time when I was looking for games like sokker, not anymore. I constantly download some mobile games though, I try them out. I'm not checking out browser games at all. They could make it big with an app (where you could watch matches), only sticking to browsers is slim pickings in terms of new users.
Yup, exactly. Mobile is where it's a it in 2022.
Yup, exactly. Mobile is where it's a it in 2022.
So what are you saying?
Rip sokker...everybody go home. This game isn't worth your time?
I mean. I reached out a midway solution with this topic. But I still feel positive about the changes made and still to come..
There's always a crowd to please with this game! And I'm frigging proud to be a part of it. Wether the community will grow eventually or not.
I have no reason to search for another game if there's sokker. New users are welcome, but I didn't suggest this proposition for the new people in the first place. I did it for the sake of the small countries!
Rip sokker...everybody go home. This game isn't worth your time?
I mean. I reached out a midway solution with this topic. But I still feel positive about the changes made and still to come..
There's always a crowd to please with this game! And I'm frigging proud to be a part of it. Wether the community will grow eventually or not.
I have no reason to search for another game if there's sokker. New users are welcome, but I didn't suggest this proposition for the new people in the first place. I did it for the sake of the small countries!
the game might exist, the users might come but 100k or even 50k? I think that doubling the current user base is wishful thinking
maybe it's me being pessimistic, but I think about myself as rather being realistic, mostly from the exact reasons borkos mentioned
although, I would like to be proved wrong
maybe it's me being pessimistic, but I think about myself as rather being realistic, mostly from the exact reasons borkos mentioned
although, I would like to be proved wrong
So what are you saying?
Rip sokker...everybody go home. This game isn't worth your time?
I'm just saying that the game reach it's peak over 12 years ago and will probably never go back to that levels
stable 25-30k is I think possible (and optimistic) with really good improvements and advertisement
I was only replying to idea of 50-100k users - imo not possible judging by the market
ps. although I like the general direction of changes, I'm really disappointed on how it looks so far and how many serious mistakes are always present with new additions...now the training reports don't work and the league table positions are wrongly underlined (in my league 9, 11, 12 go to lower league, but 10 somehow is supposed to play to stay in league etc.)
also the pace of changes is very, very slow. and so far they are doing the easy stuff, they're not even touching the game mechanics...communication is also pretty bad, as always
so judging by that I wouldn't expect the game to thrive
Rip sokker...everybody go home. This game isn't worth your time?
I'm just saying that the game reach it's peak over 12 years ago and will probably never go back to that levels
stable 25-30k is I think possible (and optimistic) with really good improvements and advertisement
I was only replying to idea of 50-100k users - imo not possible judging by the market
ps. although I like the general direction of changes, I'm really disappointed on how it looks so far and how many serious mistakes are always present with new additions...now the training reports don't work and the league table positions are wrongly underlined (in my league 9, 11, 12 go to lower league, but 10 somehow is supposed to play to stay in league etc.)
also the pace of changes is very, very slow. and so far they are doing the easy stuff, they're not even touching the game mechanics...communication is also pretty bad, as always
so judging by that I wouldn't expect the game to thrive
I just hope they actually do what they can and because of fewer devs believing they can improve sokker with their crew, that it's taking longer as hoped for.
Still...having ideas and sharing them is imo the only way the community has to see some changes we were promoting ourselves.
Having a 2nd team would be a good short term way to increase the teams and therefor the fun which was the nr 1 reason this game was designed.
Still...having ideas and sharing them is imo the only way the community has to see some changes we were promoting ourselves.
Having a 2nd team would be a good short term way to increase the teams and therefor the fun which was the nr 1 reason this game was designed.
I thought about this idea a lot of times, and is also mentioned several times in the idea and bug forum.
There a few problems from start. The first problem is the size of countries, to be more specific, one country: Poland. Way too many new clubs will be Polish, all over the world. To see the problem, go to https://sokker.org/world and click managers.
To check if managers speak a foreign language is a lot of work, and can be faked (I think).
Also, if many can speak English, all countries with English as native language will be invaded by new foreign managers, the same for Spanish, but also French and Arab if these languages will ever have more managers. OIther countries will stay small.
And then there are the clubname. Do managers have to come up with native language clubnames, or is all accepted. Is it even possible to not accept all clubnames, in whatever language. I will use the Netherlands as example, in the Netherlands Spanish people are living here, if they start a team with a Spanish name, it is fine, there is no rule they can't do that. And it won't matter, as most names are Dutch and/or English (my club is FC Utrecht, FC is not Dutch, Utrecht is). But when a few dozen Polish players join the Autralian league with Polish clubnames, it won't make sence as there won't be that many Polish people living in Australia. And from that moment more names will be Polish as English, and even more visible the next season when many are promoted to first division. This will make it look very strange, and I think not a reason for local managers to start playing Sokker. I think even more will quit as join Sokker.
And last example, also partly mentioned above (but there will be more problems with this idea), if experienced managers come to a countrty, they will be playing in the first division right away and take over, because in countries there aren't even 12 managers, or they will take over the next season or season after that, as they know exactly what they are doing and won't give actually new managers a change to promote to first division before they do, or these experienced managers will become stronger very fast and kick local managers out of the first division.
So no, I don't think the second team will make Sokker better, or even worse in certain countries with already too few managers.
Not really a problem but the point of language being needed to play in a country, for example in the Netherlands there are many people living here who don't speak Dutch, as English is fine to live here. Specially in the large(r) cities this language 'issue' is no problem. They can play Sokker as Dutch managers without knowing the language, in fact, they have to play in the Dutch league because of they country they loggin. So language is not a problem, specially not if a manager will never post something on the forum. I see managers playing Sokker in the Netherlands for as long as I do, but never seen any posts of them, never. Didn't even know they existed till they came into the same league. And even then, no word from these managers.
EDIT: I didn't read all the comments, just posted my thoughts about this idea, and what already have been discussed in the past. So maybe all that I posted is already mentioned,
(edited)
There a few problems from start. The first problem is the size of countries, to be more specific, one country: Poland. Way too many new clubs will be Polish, all over the world. To see the problem, go to https://sokker.org/world and click managers.
To check if managers speak a foreign language is a lot of work, and can be faked (I think).
Also, if many can speak English, all countries with English as native language will be invaded by new foreign managers, the same for Spanish, but also French and Arab if these languages will ever have more managers. OIther countries will stay small.
And then there are the clubname. Do managers have to come up with native language clubnames, or is all accepted. Is it even possible to not accept all clubnames, in whatever language. I will use the Netherlands as example, in the Netherlands Spanish people are living here, if they start a team with a Spanish name, it is fine, there is no rule they can't do that. And it won't matter, as most names are Dutch and/or English (my club is FC Utrecht, FC is not Dutch, Utrecht is). But when a few dozen Polish players join the Autralian league with Polish clubnames, it won't make sence as there won't be that many Polish people living in Australia. And from that moment more names will be Polish as English, and even more visible the next season when many are promoted to first division. This will make it look very strange, and I think not a reason for local managers to start playing Sokker. I think even more will quit as join Sokker.
And last example, also partly mentioned above (but there will be more problems with this idea), if experienced managers come to a countrty, they will be playing in the first division right away and take over, because in countries there aren't even 12 managers, or they will take over the next season or season after that, as they know exactly what they are doing and won't give actually new managers a change to promote to first division before they do, or these experienced managers will become stronger very fast and kick local managers out of the first division.
So no, I don't think the second team will make Sokker better, or even worse in certain countries with already too few managers.
Not really a problem but the point of language being needed to play in a country, for example in the Netherlands there are many people living here who don't speak Dutch, as English is fine to live here. Specially in the large(r) cities this language 'issue' is no problem. They can play Sokker as Dutch managers without knowing the language, in fact, they have to play in the Dutch league because of they country they loggin. So language is not a problem, specially not if a manager will never post something on the forum. I see managers playing Sokker in the Netherlands for as long as I do, but never seen any posts of them, never. Didn't even know they existed till they came into the same league. And even then, no word from these managers.
EDIT: I didn't read all the comments, just posted my thoughts about this idea, and what already have been discussed in the past. So maybe all that I posted is already mentioned,
(edited)
You think managers will think it's worse to play against a real person, though Polish, than playing bots?
1 bot I don't mind, but if you have 50% bots...
1 bot I don't mind, but if you have 50% bots...