Subject: [IDEA] Very big gap beetween old coaches and newbies

There are big levels gaps
1) beetween divisions in a country: let's wait new devs ideas about, with 12 groups team or something else
2) beetween financial power for old teams and new teams: newbies need a long long time to grow up.
3) beetween players powers too: linked to financial powers

Some ideas were:

1) Only 40 players max in a team
2) A average salary cap in each club in a same division
3) A draft at the begin of the season linked to this salary cup, in a same group or a same division (like US basket)
4) Better juniors in center
5) Tax on budget given to low divisions teams or something else

6) new team should start with better descent default tactic, much more skilled players, much more money. Easy.

Don't forget older teams worked for their place in the league an for their money.
I played over 9 years sokker and then I've quited, whose fault is it that I am on the bottom now?!
There is no easy (and FAIR) way to make 15 years of work ,between we and the old teams, go away!

1. Read the manual!
2. Be smart!
3. Login regularly!
4. Select drastically your youth players in the youth academy!
5. Don't keep players with low talent in your team!
7. Don't train old players!
6. Watch your finances!
7. Read the manual again!

Tululu!
(edited)

Salut,

Systémic basis for progression in the game is based on permanent trading to raise money. The only way to create a competitive team.

let's be honest to recognize it ! It’s just a simplistic and unreal way.

It's not my choice. Never mind for my résults...

Everything else is "bla bla" as we say in France !!!!!!
(edited)

6) new team should start with better descent default tactic, much more skilled players, much more money. Easy.


Giving new managers more money will in most cases only mean that they will spend more money on the wrong things the first day and never return, just as what happens today. So that is problem one. How to make money is the next problem when players keep on playing. First thing is to make them stay for more then a few minutes, and in that time inform them well enough what to do (without an overkill of info, what will happen if even more options are added to Sokker!!!)

A way better solution I think is a really good interactive tutorial, and managers make some money each step they finish so managers win something by learning Sokker step by step; change/make and save a line up (earn some extra money), change/make and save a tactic (earn some extra money), fire a player (earn some extra money), sell a player (earn some extra money), buy a new player (earn some extra money), higher a coach (earn some extra money), etc etc, And ofcourse explain how to do these things with pointers. Afterwards give managers a certificate/managersdiploma when they made it, this will also be their 'first prize' in trophy cabinet so it will never be empty.

(App games use this tactic all the time and really helped me in many cases to understand the basics of the game and not do things I don't understand, lost all tokens and quit that 'stupid game')


Which the starting money + extra money new managers should be able to buy a desent team. Just look at the links to players in my tutiorial (STEP 2). For less then half the money new managers get from start, they can fire all players and buy 22 new juniors in return, or 19 or 20 juniors + a few more experiences stronger players, for example 2 stikers to score goals and/or 1 keeper:

https://sokker.org/forum_topic/ID_forum/1259/ID_topic/2744752/pg/1

Unfortunatly where to find all options has become even worse as it was before, because now you have to click the page left in screen and then click on top off the next screen for next page. While it was way better before; just point at thw pages, new pages appear and click the right page. No idea why DEVs make things worse.

And the problem to make it to the next division, is way to different sponsor income. In most countries there isn't even a real third or fourth division. But if there is, most easy would be to make all sponsor income the same for all first divisions, little bit less sponsor income for second divisions, and for third and lower divisions (3 /4 /5 /a junior like bottom division, etc) a little bit less as second division, BUT from division 3 and below all the same sponsor income so promotion to division 3 would be less of a problem.

Another option is to lower the stadium income. Set a max ticket price for each different kind of standing/seat (one with roof, other without roof) in all divisions around the would. This will also prevent to much new money will enter the game.

And ofcourse, all players from teams that become bot should go to the TL. Almost all money spend on all these players will leave the game, except for 21u owners of these players. More players on the TL will also lower the prices of players on TL (in combination of less income for top teams and lower inflations) weaker managers will most probably be able to buy better players as today.

(and I still prefer a bottom league for all new managers to start if seasons are already on their way, these teams shouls also get the same sponsor income as third division, stadium income divided by both teams as there won't be home and away every other week, just as junior league)

Sponsorincome NO longer based on how many supporters others have in your division. Everyone should get the same sponsormoney, in all divisions of the same level, in ALL countries all over the world (for example sponsor money in second division of Poland should be the same as in the Netherland, Australia or whatever country!! The extra income should only come from more people visiting your stadium, which will still be based on number of supporters and mood, quality of stadium and ofcourse entrance fee. So to have more supporters and happy supporters will still benefits, but less as nowadays


And find a way not too much money enters the game, without taking a lot out it again. For example, make the % of fees higher when players are sold for more money. So when expensive players are sold, more money as today will leave the game (for example the max fee when players are sold for more then 5M). The question is who should pay this fee, the buyer or seller, or both. Also the fee for previous owner when player was U21 should come from this money.

The idea is to make teams less rich, so not sure what is best. Data from sells and buys should be used to know where to take most money from, I don't have that data. Less money on top will give weaker (new) teams more changes to reducse the gap to the top.


The default tactics I agree. Give them just 6 tactics that are most used around the world (532 and 541 = DEF training, 352 and 451 = MID training, 433 = ATT training and 442 = GK training(?)). And players at better positions as what they get nowadays. When there are still bots in divisions, let these teams use one these tactics randomly. That would make it at least a bit more fun to play against bots, less predicatable matches.


Anyway, I think money new managers get from start is not the main problem (but could be increased by makw then do tutorial steps), A good missing tutorial is a problem. With such a tutorial new managers can be explained what to buy and NOT to buy, But I do agree with a few better default tactics, also used randomly by bots to make even those matches more interesting.


EDIT text a number of times :/
(edited)

Lot of text, but could not explain it with less words (I think). Others probably can, but I can't :P

Giving new managers more money will in most cases only mean that they will spend more money on the wrong things the first day and never return, just as what happens today.

It's true, but so what ? What's the real problem if new comers spend money for nothing ?

If a new manager tend to like the game he will tend to read rules, tips or tutorial (all around in forums!) and tend to acting carefully (like not spending too much money). Those players will stay in the game, the others not. But you offer the possibility to this new comers to build a better decent team and not waiting 2 real years : that's the true problem for new comers that tend to like the game but are boring to wait so long to reach a better level and new challenges.
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Exactly, the problem is the second part of your post, how to close the gap to the top, so it is not nearly impossible to reach it. But that gap is not closed by giving new managers more money as most will still spend it unwisely. The problem is at the top, too much money enters the game without having to do anything about it, because of large stadiums, supports and sponsor incomes.

By giving new managers more money, the problem is solved for not even a season I guess, because managers with more money will spend more money on players exactly the same players they can buy at this moment for less money. Right now they all spend leff as the competitions for those players also doesn't have more money. The moment everyone get more free money, prices will go up (why stop bidding at 10K if you have 500K to spend, while 20K is perfectly fine if you have 100K, in % you have spend the same ammount). The pyramide is just made bigger, (not hgher but bigger), but absolutely not flatter and that is what you want, a flatter pyramide. The top has to come down, more close to the bottom.

Just by giving new managers more money it will patch the problem for weeks or manybe a few seasons, but it is not a structural solution as money at the top keeps on coming into the game in a higher rate as new managers can grow.

The only structural solition is to bring a stop to unlimited money entering this game. Now it is as if some money printer machine keeps on priniting more and more money, which means inflation and more inflation, that won't smaller the gap, it only gives everyone more money, and the top always more as the bottom because of way higher incomes. The top should earn less on a structural base, not by giving the bottom a one time bonus which will be spend soon (and infact increase inflaton even more) while the problem is still the same; the impossible to reach top.
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But it is difficult because there isn't some yearly correction of how much money should be in the game, how much are players really worth, etc, like with stock markets.

A quick, but also no permanent solution is to reset all stong bot teams. All their money is gone, and all money spend on the players that are bought is also out of the game.


Oh wait, that could be a solution, Add new older players to the game that are owned by no one. So when bought, money will leave the game right away. Unfortunatly this also means that the manager won't buy a player from an active manager and earn money, In that case Sokker needs more new managers, so the TL won't really suffer as just a few % of all (stronger) players are added to get money out of the game. And make sure these players will be too old in just 2 or 3 seasons to make the same ammount of money when they are sold again.

That could be a way to close the gap a bit more.
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Just by giving new managers more money it will patch the problem for weeks or manybe a few seasons, but it is not a structural solution

Ok, but if that's not a definitive solution, at least, we can go forward. And you know it like me : devs (see diaries) didnt plan to change structural things. Dont spend times with "structural" it could never happens or taking years... That's close the debat, i am afraid.

I'm ok that more money sink can create price inflation, but the market (especially the top 5% players) is influenced by many other things : more or less active managers, less good player production (see my Y.S post), more or less new managers, new rules about trading, ...

Giving more money (and/or more good players) will never hurt older teams and will never reduce the gap indefinite, but at least it will solve one thing : better players quicker for beginners. It's a shame, when you start to trade poor players for less poor players for years. (Also, new day-traders that could reduce the gap are not so much welcome with new trading rules)
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I think that interactive tutorial with rewards would be a really good solution for newcomers. Not only money, but other useful things like, for instance a talented junior or coach with let's say unearhly pace or smth like that.

agree

this is a slow growing game, it takes time and patience to build a high performing team. If you want that, you can achieve even without fast trading. Having my example, in 15 years of sokker I have never did fast trading, I always went on the training of players for medium and long periods, I obtained important trophies including CC, it is not a praise, just proof that it is possible, opinion of skeptics ,who consider that all the top teams have fast traders managers.
The first thing I did when I entered this game was to read the rules and go with questions on the forum for misunderstood things. Do the same and you will succeed, easy money is not a solution.
Reducing the gap between a new and an old team by artificially infusing money into the new team, would mean an injustice and a lack of recognition of the efforts made for so many years.

+1

It is not slow growing anymore for new managers, the gap between best teams and worst teams is not possible to overcome anymore. Ot at least not in a reasonable amount of seasons, but I thing almost never, the larger a country is, the more difficult is becomes. But even in the Netherlands this is the case.

And it is absolutely not about easy money, it is about the impossible gap between old and new managers. And with old I mean old and serious playing managers. I am also an old manager, I can be beaten because I am not that seriously playing anymore, but even that will take so much time. If all other teams stood still, yes no problem for new managers to come closer to the top, it will still take a lot of seasons but they will make it. But unfortunatly, that is not what is happening. The rest of all managers also still grow stronger, making more money. The gap increases to the top.

About that money. All teams in all first diviosn all over the world should get the same amount of sponsor money, or to make it worth to be a bit better as the rest, half of a league who are on top get a little more so it is worth fighting for the higher places, Same for all second divisions, third divisions, and forth and fifth should get the same as third, to lower the gap right away. This also makes tactics more important, be a good manager and not simply use default tactics.

The extra money each team makes should come from stadium tickets, so supprtersmood will stay important to get full stadiums! And supportersmoney at the end of the season, when you get your supportersmoney. Having more supporters, and a good stadium will make that extra ammount of money other won't make. This way at least some is and will stay more equal for all clubs. And not that after a reset of a strong team into bot all other mnagers in that league loose a lot of money. Makes no sense and is unfair. No one can help it someone quits.

To know many managers are stuck in the bottom division for many seasons, and do nothing about that, is not improving the game. And Sokker wants to improve the game, so these things have to be solved ASAP also.
.
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I like a lot your propposals, plus I think one easy thing to do is to increase salaries.
Teams will have to buy more balanced players and choose their stars, then tactic will be more important and new good managers will be able to develop faster